SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
There are movies about relationships, movies about war, movies about video games, even. And then there's, of course, movies about the movies.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SUNSET BOULEVARD")
GLORIA SWANSON: (As Norma Desmond) There's nothing else - just us and the cameras and those wonderful people out there in the dark. All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up.
DETROW: Seventy-five years ago this week, one of the iconic films about Hollywood arrived in theaters, "Sunset Boulevard," about an aging silent film star Norma Desmond, played by real-life silent film star Gloria Swanson. The film featured other Hollywood figures playing versions of themselves, and all of this got us thinking about other films about the movies, the business behind them and the act of making them. So I brought in two of NPR's biggest movie experts - NPR's movie critic Bob Mondello. Hi, Bob.
BOB MONDELLO, BYLINE: Good to see you.
DETROW: And Aisha Harris, host of Pop Culture Happy Hour - hey, Aisha.
AISHA HARRIS, BYLINE: Hey. Thanks for having me.
DETROW: So "Sunset Boulevard" was directed and cowritten by Billy Wilder. It's this real dark portrait of Hollywood. But Bob, take us back a bit. Billy Wilder wasn't the first to have this idea...
MONDELLO: Definitely not.
DETROW: ...And not the last.
MONDELLO: Certainly not the last - no, he - there are hundreds of movies about moviemaking. If you look back into Wikipedia - you know, as a seasoned film critic, I occasionally go to...
DETROW: Yes.
MONDELLO: ...My resources - there are 200 pages of titles. I think it's 37 films starting with A, 68 starting with S, including...
DETROW: Hot topic.
MONDELLO: I mean, it's just - they're everywhere. But I was thinking about, what is the first one I remember? And that is kid - not from seeing it back when it opened - "Kid Auto Races At Venice," which is the second movie that Charlie Chaplin ever did, and the first one he did as the Little Tramp. And it's about him getting in the way of the camera. And he kept on getting in the way, and the director would run into the scene and shoo him away. And you'd see the camera, which you never saw in silent films. And so he was playing with it, and that's only the second film he ever made. And, you know, in "Sherlock Jr." and in "The Cameraman," Buster Keaton did the same kind of thing. He had a whole lot of stuff about it. So this was there from the very beginning of film.
DETROW: Aisha, what jumped out to you on this topic?
HARRIS: One of the ones that I love is Preston Sturges' 1941 film "Sullivan's Travels."
MONDELLO: Oh, yeah.
HARRIS: And - yeah, so this one has Joel McCrea playing a director of very popular but also very low-brow comedies, who decides all of a sudden, like, he wants to make a more important, more meaningful drama about the less privileged.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SULLIVAN'S TRAVELS")
JOEL MCCREA: (As John L. Sullivan) I want this picture to be a commentary on modern conditions, stark realism, the problems that confront the average man.
ROBERT WARWICK: (As Mr. LeBrand) But with a little sex.
MCCREA: (As John L. Sullivan) A little, but I don't want to stress it.
HARRIS: And so in order to understand them firsthand, he sets out to live his life as a poor drifter. You know, it's very classic, like, oh, Hollywood, these out-of-touch types trying to make it seem as though they can connect with the average person or people outside of their bubble. And what I love about this is that in the third act, the very famous third act, you have the Joel McCrea character, like, watching prisoners enjoy a Pluto cartoon. They rarely get any chance to enjoy themselves, and they are laughing, they are crying, they are enjoying this very minor short movie. And he decides, you know what?
MONDELLO: Yeah.
HARRIS: Comedy is important too.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SULLIVAN'S TRAVELS")
MCCREA: (As John L. Sullivan) There's a lot to be said for making people laugh. Did you know that's all some people have? It isn't much, but it's better than nothing in this cockeyed caravan.
HARRIS: So Hollywood has often been kind of wrestling with its own perception and what matters and what it means to be important versus what makes people happy. And so that's one of my favorite films I love to look back on.
MONDELLO: Oh, I love it too. It's great.
DETROW: And, as we've said, this has continued. I mean, these days, we've got shows, too, like "Entourage" or AppleTV's "The Studio." But Bob, this is a line through Hollywood through the decade is always looking back in at itself and not just being kind of self-involved but also using these to tell broader stories.
MONDELLO: Yes. I think at some point, any filmmaker, anybody who's making a film, is going to think, well, I've been told, write what you know. And what I know is film.
DETROW: Yeah.
MONDELLO: So let's make a film about film. Let me just mention a few famous directors who have made...
DETROW: Yeah.
MONDELLO: ...Movies about making movies - "Stardust Memories" from Woody Allen.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "STARDUST MEMORIES")
WOODY ALLEN: (As Sandy Bates) I don't want to make funny movies anymore. They can't force me to.
MONDELLO: The Coen Brothers made both "Barton Fink" and "Hail, Caesar!"
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "HAIL, CAESAR!")
JOSH BROLIN: (As Eddie Mannix) Great masses of humanity look to pictures for information and uplift and, yes, entertainment.
MONDELLO: "Ed Wood," Tim Burton's look at B movie director, Ed Wood.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ED WOOD")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Hi. Can I help you?
JOHNNY DEPP: (As Ed Wood) Yes, I'm Ed Wood. I'm here about directing the Christine Jorgensen picture.
MONDELLO: Martin Scorsese did it in "Hugo." He looked at the invention of the movie camera. It's like his love letter to it. "Tropic Thunder," Ben Stiller's spoof of the filming of "Apocalypse Now."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "TROPIC THUNDER")
BEN STILLER: (As Tugg Speedman) Where are you going?
ROBERT DOWNEY JR: (As Kirk Lazarus) We'll just rewrite it. Action Jackson can't cry. That's what's going down.
STILLER: (As Tugg Speedman) You know what, Kirk? I'm ready to do the scene.
STEVE COOGAN: (As Damien Cockburn) Hey.
DOWNEY: (As Kirk Lazarus) What scene?
MONDELLO: "Babylon" by Damien Chazelle, the film he made right after "La La Land."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BABYLON")
BRAD PITT: (As Jack Conrad) You know, when I first moved to LA, you know what the signs on all the doors read? No actors or dogs allowed. Yeah, I changed that.
MONDELLO: I mean, I think if you're a filmmaker, it does occur to you at some point (laughter).
DETROW: Right.
MONDELLO: Well, I should really do this.
DETROW: Aisha, let's zoom in on one movie. I know you just rewatched...
HARRIS: Yeah.
DETROW: ...Robert Altman's "The Player."
HARRIS: Yes.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE PLAYER")
TIM ROBBINS: (As Griffin Mill) Can we talk about something other than Hollywood for a change?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) Yes.
ROBBINS: (As Griffin Mill) We're educated people.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) Sure.
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS: This movie is now, you know, over 30 years old, but it still feels so relevant. You know, you mentioned "The Studio" earlier, which is a great show. I think everyone should watch. But "The Studio" is sort of heavily indebted to and references "The Player" because, you know, that one is looking at the current space where we have Hollywood just cranking out sequels, cranking out sequels, cranking out movies about products. And when "The Player" opens - "The Player" opens with Buck Henry, the screenwriter of "The Graduate" - like, he's playing himself - pitching Tim Robbins' producer character, Griffin Mill, an idea for "The Graduate 2."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE PLAYER")
BUCK HENRY: (As Buck Henry) And Mrs. Robinson lives with them. Her aging mother, who's had a stroke.
ROBBINS: (As Griffin Mill) Mrs. Robinson has (ph)...
HENRY: (As Buck Henry) Mrs. Robinson has a stroke, so she can't talk.
ROBBINS: (As Griffin Mill) Is this going to be funny?
HENRY: (As Buck Henry) Yeah, it'll be funny...
ROBBINS: (As Griffin Mill) With the stroke?
HENRY: (As Buck Henry) ...Dark and weird and funny.
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS: So it's funny because it just feels as though Hollywood has always felt like it was at a crossroads. It's this great mix of self-referential comedy but also, like, an awareness that, you know, these are still just movies, you know, at the end of the day.
DETROW: Yeah. And it's interesting there's, like, different genres within this genre and kind of different feels and levels of cynicism versus earnestness in them. There's movies about the business side of things, which I think probably often is the cynical side. There's movies about them making the movies. I will mention one, "The Muppet Movie."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE MUPPET MOVIE")
JIM HENSON: (As Kermit the Frog) Hey. We're all going to Hollywood. You want to come with us?
RICHARD HUNT: (As Sweetums) Hollywood?
HARRIS: So good.
DETROW: It's super earnest...
MONDELLO: Of course, yes.
DETROW: ...Kind of, like, honestly, young - my introduction to Hollywood. I remember the first time I was actually in Hollywood, and I was just, like, thinking of "The Muppet Movie"...
MONDELLO: Yeah, yeah, yep (ph).
DETROW: ...Which is, of course, not a real-life reflection of the industry.
HARRIS: (Laughter).
DETROW: But it...
MONDELLO: Yes, it is. Yes, that's exactly how it is.
(LAUGHTER)
DETROW: But when it's all going well, the idea of, like, telling a story and all getting together to do something - you know? - like, I think everyone has pieces of that.
MONDELLO: It's about the magic of the movies, right?
HARRIS: Yeah.
DETROW: Yeah.
MONDELLO: That's - yes, in essence, I think all of these movies are - even the ones that are cynical about Hollywood are about the magic...
DETROW: Yeah.
HARRIS: Yeah.
MONDELLO: ...Because it's a dream factory, right?
DETROW: One other thing, we have kind of gone through all of these Hall of Fame American directors who live and work in Hollywood, but it's not just Hollywood, right? Like, foreign filmmakers have also done notable movies about the process of making movies.
MONDELLO: Absolutely true. I guess the classic that everybody turns to is "8 1/2," which was Federico Fellini basically stuck for an idea for a movie, making a movie about a director who's stuck for an idea of making a movie and who is inspired by all these beautiful women.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "8 1/2")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character, non-English language spoken).
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #7: (As character, non-English language spoken).
MONDELLO: All the women in his life show up in this movie, and it's just remarkable. I mean, it's gorgeous. Marcello Mastroianni plays him, and it's really beautiful. You know, there's "Day For Night," which is Truffaut being just kind of brilliant about a filmmaker who's having family problems and who incorporates all of them into his film. Every time somebody does this, it's kind of interesting.
The thing that has struck me recently is all these Iranian films because the filmmakers there are under a - I don't know, a government that doesn't want them to make films. And they're - so they make films about making films. And the one that really strikes me is a film called "This Is Not A Film" that Jafar Panahi made not too long ago, and it's all about process because he's not allowed to touch the camera, right? And so you watch all these things happening, and you see the camera frequently. And it's really about the circumstances of film and why they are important, why this whole idea of making movies matters.
DETROW: So Aisha, let's bring this around. We talked about "Sunset Boulevard," made at a time of tumult in the industry, very cynical view of it. And as we were saying, different times of tumult have continued, right? Like, there's always an existential crisis. Many right now of sorting through streaming, sorting through AI and how that takes over - or doesn't - the creative process. Have you seen anything that kind of captures the current angst of the industry?
HARRIS: Yes, I am cynical about these things. I am afraid of AI, like a lot of people, and how that's affecting things and the idea that writers are no longer seen as, you know, vital or as vital as they were.
DETROW: Right.
HARRIS: But then I also think about, you know, there are certain sections of Hollywood that I think are still trying to maintain some sort of creativity and also honor the past. Look, Tom Cruise, I - (laughter) there's a lot you can say about him, but the fact that he is, you know, very, very much like, I want to keep people in theaters, his whole push with the "Mission Impossible" franchise, I think that's, you know, very much important to the idea of the moviemaking, the filmmaking business - I also think a movie like "The Fall Guy," which came out last year about, you know, the stunt business and honoring stunt people in that business.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE FALL GUY")
RYAN GOSLING: (As Colt Seavers) Why me?
EMILY BLUNT: (As Jody Moreno) You're a stunt man. No one's going to notice whether you're here or not. No offense.
GOSLING: (As Colt Seavers) I mean, some taken.
HARRIS: There's all of these attempts, I think, for Hollywood to try and save itself. And I think we're trying to do that, and it's - Hollywood will always be dying. I don't think it'll ever be dead...
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS: ...If that makes sense.
MONDELLO: Yes.
DETROW: That is NPR's Aisha Harris and Bob Mondello. Thanks to you both.
MONDELLO: This was great.
HARRIS: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
